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Re: Updated Benchmark Available
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexey Gokhberg <alexei@bluewin.ch>
> > ... The topic "is XSLT fast enough" is in fact
> > very tricky and requires long discussion ...
> >
>
> Sure.
>
> But I beleive that this has more to do with the implementation, than
> with the XSLT specification itself. From some point of view, XSLT could
> play for XML the same role as SQL plays for relational data. In
> particular, in both cases the sophisticated optimization techniques are
> needed to achieve the reasonable performance. I am pretty sure, in the
> near future we will see the new generation of optimized XSLT processors.
So am I. But I'm also sure that some of those iplementations will not
be 100% conformant to XSLT WD. By the way what is SQL ? ;-)
I think "100% portable SQL queries" have not too much sense in
current world.
> Indeed, I am concerned more with the topic "is developing stylesheets
> with XSLT fast enough". As I can understand, XSL was concieved as a
> declarative language that does not require substantial programming
> skills from the stylesheet authors. However, as we could see so far,
> implementation of many relatively simple algorithms may require advanced
> LISP-like methods. Who knows how much man-hours will be spent for doing
> in XSLT things that could be easily done in other languages? and how
> many people will experience difficulties mastering XSLT? Yes, there are
> few XSLT gurus on the Web, they are glad to help everyone, but is their
> summary manpower sufficient to support the industrial use of XSLT across
> the world?
Sure I agree ( because I was constantly making the same statements
myself ). There is not a big number of people who can get pipes, there is
not a big number of developers who get functional programming. Some
people are saying: "this is issue of education". I doubt ( in fact it
*is* issue of education, but not the issue of 'programming education' )
I mean making functional language to be a 'first language' has no serious
impact. 7+ years ago I have been involved in some experiments when
one class of students (children) got Pascal as a first language
when the second class got Logo ( I was used to write part of MIT-logo
interpreter ). I came to the conclusion that ability to use concepts of
functional programming has nothing to do with the 'programming educaion'.
I think masses will use not more than 3-4 constructions of XSLT. But that's
not too bad actually.
> Please, understand me correctly. I appreciate XSLT technology very much
> (having invested a lot in it), but I am really afraid that if the
> usability issues will be not successfully resolved, XSLT can die very
> soon, despite those bright ideas that form the basis of this technology.
XSLT will not die ;-) Well ... not really. I consider XSLT to be a first
prototype implementation of some important concepts. Syntax is weird,
many useless hacks are in the core e t.c. e t.c. But that's not a big deal.
XSLT contains some brilliant inventions - those inventions will not
die. For example, I mean the biggest invention of XSLT is that
easy combination of 'push-pull' is the way to go. Remove pull
from XSLT and we'l get awk / M4. Remove push - we'l get kinda SQL.
The next steps will take into account the importance of push-pull
combination - this means XSLT will not 'die'. This is in fact a long topic
and I'm not sure we should start it now.
> ... but whether it is smart or just wise, it got the point - it
> attracted much more attention than the ordinary announcement could do.
> This is like a street fight - nobody will judge how refined is your
> technique, only the final result is important.
Hm. Since in the 60-s(?) in the US they invented that it is more profitable
to invest $1 into advertizing of beer rather than invest that $1 into
quality of beer - thats the way marketing goes. Of course this also explains
why there is no good beer in the US. I think those who care about the quality
of beer should just ignore those who are concerned about marketing.
Some time ago I've wrote a long letter - prediction about the future of XML.
My prediction is that at some point those of us who care about the quality
of beer will have to start with 'another XML' - like Linux was 'another UNIX'.
I think that if you just move your stuff in reasonable direction - you can
be sure - at some point those who are making real job will recognize
your product no matter how conformat it will be at that point ;-)
Of course, as I wrote in my prediction, this is not a good thing when
those who care about some XML parts are working 'against' W3C
( like it was not a good thing that Linux started working against
FreeBSD project ). It will be of course better if, for example,
you and some other people who care about usability of
XML-related things will be on WG, or something.
But this not gonna happen ever, I think. FreeBSD people
were not smart to recognize the possible impact of
Linus Torvald. In result we got Linux and FreeBSD when
we could get one project ( and one developers base ).
But maybe it was *good* we got FreeBSD / Linux.
Maybe it will be *good* if we get "W3C alternative".
This is the issue of time, I think. How long people will
keep waiting for XSL FO ? They'll stop waiting when
they'll *really* start using XML ;-)
Rgds.Paul.
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